the ideal german knife

[Hocker]

Vor einiger Zeit hab' ich nach einem "einfachen Brotzeitmesser" gesucht,...denn sind wir mal ehrlich, das dürfte wohl allgemein der Hauptverwendungszweck sein.
.........die wenigsten unter uns sind Jäger oder Ninjas

So sehr ich normalerweise drauf stehe, diesmal sollte es absolut "non tactical" sein. Ein Messer für den Hosensack, ohne Clip, in meinem Fall mit nur einer grossen Klinge.
Was passt in unsere (Kultur.-) Landschaft, was macht kaum jemanden nervös ( unsereiner ist ja was Grösse und Optik betrifft doch etwas schmerzfreier als der Nichtmesserliebhaber... ), was würden die meissten Leute auch als "normales Taschenmesser" ansehen ohne das es gleich aus Ibach kommen muss ?

In meinem Fall ist es dann ein älteres Puma 921 geworden, eine Klinge, Messingbacken, Holzschalen.
(Klinge wie auf dem einen Bild, Griff wie auf dem andern...)

Was heisst schon "typisch" ? Ich finde es passt hierher....,... und ist irgendwie zeitlos

 

[ausjulius]

ok , so basicaly form what i figure ,
a knife with a
12cm handle
10-13 cm blade,
flat grinding , ,
about -3.5-4mm thick ,

so weve got a size,,
but still what will make this knfie german?
i think it will come out looking as any tipical american small hunitng knife,,


ok , ill answer some of my questions my self,,

mostly you folk are not hunters or in the military,
so thinkg like survival knives and skinning knives are not much use


i think most people want the knife to use when going hiking and for maybe cutting up food and cuttingthe odd peice of wood or cord or rope or such ,
so well think of a knife that is a cutting knife ,
one that should have a great degree of blade control,, so a handle bigger than the blade , and a borad blade with very thin grinding would be ideal,

as i think most of you are not cutting bone and wittling wiht your knives as single bevel like on the scandinavian knives will not be ideal, as it is more for very hard materials,
so i think a full clean grind with a thin edge would be best,
i would think a stright blade would also be prefered , as unless you are disassembling animals a curve in the blade isnt of any use,

a blade of stainless steel would be best for the things that is is used for , as cutting things like fruit can discolour the carbon blade,
also the blade should be mirror polished , as it is the cleanest when using the knife on food,

now the sheath,

with the sheath i would thing that leather woudl be better than kydex,, puerly becuase , we havent kydex in russia but also ,, a leather sheath is more natural looking and complerments the knife better,
i think a friction fit ,, but maybe with a bit of a german look to it,


now , what are we going to to put on the knife to make it look german?

 

[teachdair]

a small slender sheepfoot would be perfect, with a flat grind.
according to several prejudices, the finish has to be damn near perfect,
and the knive should have a kind of utilitarian look

 

[lacis]

• think of a knife that is a cutting knife
• a handle bigger than the blade
• a broad blade with very thin grinding would be ideal
• a full clean grind with a thin edge would be best
• a straight blade would also be prefered
• a blade of stainless steel would be best for the things that is is used for
• also the blade should be mirror polished
• leather would be better than kydex

I second all your points.

now , what are we going to to put on the knife to make it look german?

We had the same discussion some month ago with Sal Glesser of Spyderco who offered to design a german Spyderco. Anybody could describe his ideal Spyderco, but it was hard to find out, what would make a this knife typical german.

I visited your thread from time to time and like the idea of having a german Kizlyar, but I have definitely no idea about a typical german knife. The only thing, that comes in to my mind, is stag.

Sal Glesser suggested some aspects like "high tec" and "engineering" and recommended silver G10 or CF for the handle. I would go with that. But unfortunately the Spyderco thread is down now. Seems to be a hard job designing a German Knife ;-)

 

[Blacky]

Huh, please, no stag and no sheepfoot. I think the knife should look a little nice, and a sheepfoot, stag-handled knife would be the overkill of uglyness
But a stainless steel (Böhler N690 ?) with a mirror polish would be great for this knife and the measures aren't that bad, too.
I would like a slightly drop-pointed knife with a wood-handle, maybe german wood?
Sebastian

 

[ausjulius]

we have quite a bit of german steel in the factory , i think krup,,, but its realy bad quality, ,
it cracks when its stamped and the annealed hardness is very inconsistant,,
after that my boss said no more german steel :O

we have a little bohler steel , but i think only in thin sheet, its good quality,

id say a steel with lower carbon ,like this z60 we use, 65x13 and such , or at the most z90,,
anda hardness of about 58 rockwell or so ,
it wont ever rust or stain and you can sharpen it with ease,,
although with a small blade that is very thin ground it isnt that hard to sharpen no matter what the steel,


for a knife that one will use and a mutil use tool i think a softer steel is always better,
it may get blnt quicker , but as you will never be chopping through bones or such the most common was youll blunten it would be against hard objests, and then no matter what the steel is, a ceramic plate or a stone will destroy the edge,

ive found steels like vg10 are not very good for kitchen knife steels as the are to hard to sharpen when hardend to a high rockwell,
we have a steel 110x18 it is like a rusty vg10 , when its very hard it dosnt like to sharpen at all,


for pocket knives it is great,,
anyway , just my opinion ,

like on the scandi knives some are below 50 rockwell :O but you can sharpen them very quickly (some are above 60 rockwell , but traditionaly it is not so)
still it all depengs on how you are using the knife , what you will cut with it and how much you will cut,
for wood very hard is very good, but then hard to sharpen,
for meat and food it dosnt matter much and a soft blade is better, not too soft,, 54 or so is fine,
ofcorse the sharpening is the most important,,

anyway , back to the knife,,
ok , if you want german wood ,, its kind of hard, as here we havent german wood, other than oak and walnut,

so someone would have to send us some to make the prototype,

now making the knife german,,,
stag would be good , but it seems many of you oppose this.. , i like the stag personaly, but,, .
so , id say walnut or oak ,
when i see micarta or g10 i think american, as that is where these products come from , and they use these materials most frequently,


now with the sheath i think we could make it look quite german ,
have a leather tip on it and such , make it germanish ,,

but the knife , i realy dont know,

i mentioned it to some of the russians here and they all said a ruler, a clock and a coat brush!! for german precision and cleanlyness,
one guy also said a picture of a nude woman on the blade , a beer bottel opener and a saw , but he didnt say what the saw was for .. although it might just have been his ideal knife he was talking about



maybe putting something in the shape that would make it look german,
maybe putting some small picture or image on it , i dont know , as im not a german,

 

[Blacky]

If I read your post, especially the last few sentences, there's something new coming up to my mind, another point of view.
Now, I would say a typical german knife is a simple, useful knife which you can use for nearly everything you will need it for, if it is your edc/edu.
I think of a knife which has no engravement (or whatever it is called), no presentation-grade wood or other expensive material, but perfectly fits a high number of different hands and cuts everything from paper/packages over food up to wood, if you are camping etc.
(Sorry for my long sentence an the bad english )
But, at the same time, there should be the possibility to carry it inconspicuously and comfortably but easy to reach. I think it should be a really simple knife with a lots of possibilitis to use it every day.
Sebastian

 

[ausjulius]

still what would make a simple utility knife german??
we'd need to mut osmethign on it , or make it look a specific way for germans, and othe rpeople looking at it to think of it as german,

thats the hard part,

 

[ausjulius]

well if you guys want something realy utilitarian then what about a a knife with a resin impregnated burch handle and a unpolished convex ground carbon steel blade??
it would be realy cheap and if one only wants a knife for work then it would work very well,,
it would look like a tool than a knif ethough ,

 

[ausjulius]

ok,
i kind of forgot about this thread,, but today i was reading it again , and trying to figure our what most of it said,, german you see is a language i cant realy speek,

so i drew two knives in the style i though you folk woudl like..

one is as the first knife that was preposed, like our gurza-2 ,, the other is like an allround knife as the germans like at the moment ,, but still i cant see anything german about them......


what do you guys think about these two??
sorry for the bad drawings and pictures, i just drew them up in about 2 minutes each......

 

[Flieger]

i like your first drawing (the german mk I :lach: ) and the idea of using a simple convex ground carbon steel blade... in combination with the thin blade stock, it would make an awesome cutter ! i'd be in for some of these, if you decide on producing them.

in the meantime, i'm really enjoying a Cmepx-1. thanks for making these

chris

 

[eisbaer]

I really like your first drawing. Carbon steel sounds very good, although I'd prefer a flat ground blade.
Nevertheless I think drawing #1 is the way to go. Maybe with some wood or micarta handles and a leather sheath.

 

[gast]

Your first drawing looks appealing to me, too, but I would add a more substantial guard. Taking my moderate sharpening skills into acount, I'd also prefer a flat grind. Of course this is just a personal preference.

Regarding your question "What would be considered as typical german in a knife?" I can only give an answer that has been given many times before: a stag handle. Personally, I'd rather see micarta or G10 used in this knife.

I guess nowadays Germans aren't bothered too much by the question what features make products seem typically german and which features don't. If you offer a good knife worth its money it will be bought.

 

[niobium]

I have lived from 1946 to 1970 in Germany so I think that I know my German friends.They like reliability, good quality and functionality.The idea of "a German knife" comes from the traditional images of the hunters.And then they think of stag and bavarian designs.From marketing point of view you have three categories: hunters, users and collectors.The biggest market is the one of the collectors but their taste changes often.If I could humbly suggest my idea of such a knife that represents the spirit of this country: blade 12 cm, stainless or good carbon but not the ridiculous US hypes.Very solid grip construction: tapered tang.Handle material: choice between natural and high tec materials.Sheath: leather.
For me Germany is Wertarbeit:You pay a lot and you get a lot.But simplicity, good engeneering, perfect materials and no nonsens are the basics.In Russia with the Baroc designs for the new nomenclatura its the opposite what I would call German.
Als kleiner Belgier noch viele Grüsze an meine Deutsche Nachbarn und ich hoffe das die Idee von "Deutsch" nicht mehr auf Vorurteile basiert wird.

 

[porcupine]

I like the first drawing. That could be a good user or collectible, if offered with either carbon or stainless or damascus steel and maybe two or three handle materials.
Spoken from my experience with knives, I would hide the lanyard hole into the wooden handle. Otherwise the steel bites in your palm, when you work. Or set it to the lower end of the handle.
arno

 

[eisbaer]

I think niobium put it right,

(...) reliability, good quality and functionality.(...) simplicity, good engeneering, perfect materials and no nonsens are the basics.

That's what it's all about.

 

[lacis]

@ niobium: Thanks for the input - perhaps it easier to find out what is »typical german« from the outside.

I'm more into the first drawing too. I like upswept-point-blades, but in my eyes the second knife is a little to upswept.

 

[niobium]

clean,straight lines, not a lot of spacers or different kinds of materials, I think a drop point with flat grind;certainly not the fanatasy style of Hibben nor the Tactical Strider and Company.In french I would say:bon genre, bon gout.Ein einfacher zeitloser slichten guten Geschmack.Der Othello Sting gefiel mir ganz gut,die erste Jagdmesser von Borger waren auch optische Klasse.The first knife would be OK with a simple round end of the grip but I like a guard in steel for the finishing touch.Achim Wirtz also makes "German knives": simple design, natural materials and a very high knowledge of his steel, the damascus.It's nice, its strong what do you need more.Ich meine damit: es gibt glücklich keine Einheitswurst mehr.

 

[ausjulius]

yeah the likele thing with eh up sweap blade was just for ELdirko...
yes the first one would actualy be the one i would take,
the lack of a large guard is bacuase of the russian law,, it isnt a weapon without a large guard,


i think most people have troublem with the convex grinds,, so id stick to a flat grind, as it sutes more folks,, maybe do the carbon ones with convex grinding and the stainless ones with flat grinding

ill do a better picture shortly,
also yes id rather have the hole for the lanyard on the wood, but this is just the fashion of the day

 

[El Dirko]

yeah the likele thing with eh up sweap blade was just for ELdirko...

But I like the MK1 more.

If you ask me I like a thiner grip because I like a EDC-Knife and I want carry it IWB.
I don´t know what the other MF-Member think about that.

And I like it convex not flat.

And the design is more german than I like it. ROLF

Greets
El