the ideal german knife

[ausjulius]

im in moscow now,, ill get back to the knife when im in kizlyar in a week or so,,
.........any new ideas folks??
oh, as for the steel we have some krup steel that we can use , but sorry to say krup= krap ........ the french steel is much better,,

 

[ausjulius]

so....... ive not forogotten yet ..

here is your basic simpe knife,, made for the german,,
iwell it seems most of you guys aint so keen on the "traditional" german knives, or you find that they arnt very useful for wht you want to do .. as im guessing 99% of you arnt barvarian hunters..

so this is it, simple.. not very exspencive.. solid,, and handy..

the blade is flat ground. . the bottom one is walnut and the top,, some ugly green black micarta ( they were just testing the stuff, not my sort of thing though)
anyway the knives woudl cost aboutt he same price as stirkh, and have a blad eabout the length of stirkh-2...

we have the z60 steel, but we canmake them in the german krupp.. its somethign like 425.. .4- .45% carbon... not great steel, but german :d.. and good for food related things.....
althougn id rather go with the french steel, ..

i think walnut is best, there is oak also, but it hasnt the same look to it..

the sheath will be a friction type, and be thick black leather,,, more pics later......

anyway any suggestions?
i realy can see anythign german about it though but it looks like it is ideal for the most things..
it woudl make a good kitchen knfie, and camping knife, and it would be handy for this "bushcraft" type things, as the blade is 3.6mm thick on the base of the spine,
the rivets are bit and brass, and wont be comming loose any time..
and the lanyard hole is nice and wide, and can be cleande out form food or blood with ease.

so whats the opinion,, think there is anythign german in it????
dosnt look it,, but its handy all the same....

 

[Blacky]

Hallo,
schöne Messer, gefällt mir sehr gut! Kann es auf Englisch wohl nicht so gut ausdrücken Mir gefällt die elegante Linie und der hübsche Holzgriff. Stell sie mir sehr ergonomisch vor. Ein Traum. Und ja, 99% sind keine 'bavarian hunters' , und mindestens für die sind sie sicher ein Traum
Wie stehts mit ner Schleifkerbe?

Hello,
those knives are very beautiful and I like them. The elegant line and the nice wood handle pleases me. I think they are very ergonomic. And I also think that 99% aren't 'bavarian hunters', and for those, the knives will be a dream.
Hope, you understand what I mean, but I can't praise that good in english
What about a grinding notch or whatever it's called?

Sebastian

 

[waltan]

Die Messr gefallen mir ausgesprochen gut

 

[gast05052009]

Hi ausjulius.

can we get some more information about the size of this Knives, please.
IMO nice Knives.

Greetings

 

[Howie]

Hello ausjulius,

i like the design of this knife very good.
Both handles, especelly the Micarta, but with stainless rivets.

 

[ZiLi]

Hi,

after reading the whole thread twice, I think, you want to create a series of "ethno-knifes" for different countries, and not just only for Germany. So my personal guess would be following, beginning with material choice:

Let the handle material be a typical wood grown in the country - the German one would be oak, without doubt.
Steel would be one, that is typical for the country, so the steel for a German knife should be of German provenience.
For other countries just chose the particular wood and steel grown there. And MARK the steel type and country on the blade.

And now the choice of the knife form: Our world has globalized so much, that only a few small regions preserved their typical knife outlines - and should be preserved for other knifes. The really large differences in knife outlines are (imho) just based on the knife's intended use. So it would make sense for me to create a knife as simple and universal as possible, making it a useful tool everywhere, and make it a basis knife for the "country series". I guess something like your design shown in the photos should suffice well, because it does NOT embody some regional preferences.

So just combine the basis knife outline with the regional materials, have two or three sheath materials to chose from (leather, cordura, maybe something similar to kydex, if that is not available to you), and you are well done.

And - don't be astonished, if a German likes the English or French material combination more than the German one, and vice versa. And, don't be astonished, if some collector begins to buy the whole country series, just BECAUSE it is made with just that simple intention in mind.

just my two cents...
-zili-

 

[ZiLi]

oh, an additonal mention regarding your design: I would like to see the third rivet and the lanyard hole rivet to be only one hole rivet (and the middle rivet needed to be placed a bit back then, to be all rivets spaced evenly).

And there should be a notch at the blade base for the ease of re-sharpenig.

And (as addition for the material choice of my first message) - if there is the choice of two or more typical wood types for a particular country, please chose the lightest one available - there are too much knifes with too dark materials nowadays, and lighter materials are much more "political correct", especially regarding the many 'knifeophobians' around us 'knifeophilians', today. And that (personal) wish is valid for the sheath materials, as well.

BTW: I AM a potential buyer

-zili-

 

[ausjulius]

Hallo,
schöne Messer, gefällt mir sehr gut! Kann es auf Englisch wohl nicht so gut ausdrücken Mir gefällt die elegante Linie und der hübsche Holzgriff. Stell sie mir sehr ergonomisch vor. Ein Traum. Und ja, 99% sind keine 'bavarian hunters' , und mindestens für die sind sie sicher ein Traum
Wie stehts mit ner Schleifkerbe?

Hello,
those knives are very beautiful and I like them. The elegant line and the nice wood handle pleases me. I think they are very ergonomic. And I also think that 99% aren't 'bavarian hunters', and for those, the knives will be a dream.
Hope, you understand what I mean, but I can't praise that good in english
What about a grinding notch or whatever it's called?

Sebastian

yes i know what you mean by the "grinding notch"
these two were ground by hand, . just as exsamples, and the worker proably forgot to put it in on the blade

 

[ausjulius]

. ok , brass rivets,, are , well for me , much better, they resist water penetration into the grip around where they contact the wood.
but i grew up in a tropical place,, and mostly people were not so kind to knvies,

i guess in germany steel in just fine. (when you put the wood handles with steel rivets in water they pop off.. brass normaly wont.. copper is the best!)
no problem to do them in steel though,,


with the sheath,, no cordura!!. im not a fan of this "shopping bag material" .sorry,, just it is very very cheap stuff, and donst take my liking
yes in russia there is no kydex.. this is good material... but russian knife makers mostly dont have much contact with the outside companies,,, so it isnt to be had.
some very few custom makers buy it fom the u.s.
it can be purchased form europe for not a great cost,
but ther eis much work to get an import permit for it as then it is a "new substance"


ah the size.. havent it in front of me.. but the handle is about 12 cm long and the blade 11cm, the blade is 3.6mm thick and tapered............

maybe 3 rivets.. maybe 2............. hmm ill see..

the sheath would be leather. and a tube type...
friction fit,, like on the new u-5 knives (but you guys havent seen these just yet .. so you wont know what it looks like )

 

[Nesto]

Nach den vielen positiven Äußerungen über das schöne Messer, von mir etwas kritischeres. Ich finde, das das nicht wirklich etwas neues ist.

Wenn man schon mal die Gelegenheit hat, einem Produktionsdesigner etwas über ein "deutsches" Messer zu sagen und es kommt ein weiteres "F1" dabei heraus, finde ich das schade.

Wenn ich mir die Messerlandschaft in Deutschland betrachte, dann läuft hier kaum jemand täglich mit einem Fixed am Gürtel herum. In DL läuft man nicht mit einem sichtbaren Messer herum. Unser Land ist ein Land der "Folders", etwas, das man in der Hosentasche verdeckt trägt.

Welches Fixed Blade wird in unserem Land heutzutage benötigt, das es in der Form nicht schon tausendmal gibt? - Für mich wäre das ein Messer in der Art eines "Extrema Ratio - Shrapnel" . Ein Messer, das Klein und handlich ist, für extreme Belastung ausgelegt ist, aber relativ unauffällig am Gürtel oder Hosenbund getragen werden kann. Also etwas größer als ein FOLDER mit stabiler Klinge, mit dem man notfalls eine Tür aufstemmen kann, schnitthaltig aus gutem Stahl, dabei sehr handlich.

Das wäre ein Messer, das ich mir kaufen würde. Und wenn es dabei auch noch bezahlbar bleibt, wäre das für mich das typische Messer, das in DL gebraucht würde.

Was haltet ihr davon?

Ein sehr robustes "Shrapnel" aus Russland, zu einem günstigen Preis?

Das wärs doch.

 

[El Dirko]

Was haltet ihr davon?

Garnichts, was bringt denn klein und fett?
Mit einem kleinen Messer kannst du eh nicht die Kräfte aufbringen um am Messer was kaput zu machen. Probier mal aus ein gutes 3-4mm Fixed Messer zu verbiegen oder anders kaputt zu machen.

In Sachen kleines Fixed zum unauffälligem Tragen gebe ich Dir recht, das wurde aber wenn ich mich recht erinnere auch schon angeregt.


ausjulius: Stamp it "Rostfrei" and you have your German knive. Without such a stamp it can´t be a German knive ...

 

[ausjulius]

.. english please.. me no spekin german........... and the tanslator dont catch all the words

 

[ausjulius]

... now, you guys should now pripe at my design, ive asked plenty of times for a knife from the people here, and so far, there is little forthcoming ..
i am not german,
im only presenting something i find useful.......
and to the shape that people he said they fined the most functional.....

if you have other ideas, please by all means tell me.........

 

[Willgoy]

... now, you guys should now pripe at my design,

First of all other forum-readers,excuse me writing in English but I only read German a bit.

I think the prototype designs for the German knife are excellent,something fresh and as with Kizlyar a quality look too. I have been very interested in this thread about a 'German' style knife together with the responses to it.People from outside Germany likely have a two-fold perception of a German knife (as opposed to knives from Germany) yes some rather kitsch old school stag-handled horror that is a wall trophy or very high quality knives particularly folders from Solingen. I think your proposed designs certainly have the quality factor but also they have an up to date modern look but made with traditional materials, an excellent start.

Be interesting to see how you might render a 'French' knife as a pocket model too. How about an 'English' knife what is that?A beautiful ram-horn Barlow? Well, it doesn't exist any longer as Sheffield produces almost nothing sad to say but a warning to all knife-makers in Germany, Japan, France,Russia of what happens when your factories close and open up as slave-factories producing hideous junk in China .:teuflisch

 

[Mephistopheles]

First of all, those prototypes seem quite useful to me, but not very german somehow.

We have the blade form, we have the handle material, but no "Character" as i would call it. So let´s try. Germans - either you love us or you don´t. So it makes no sense to craft this knife nice for everybody. It would be nice to look a bit controversial. Almost ugly in appearance, but highly sophisticated in performance.

I think the knife needs more corners and edges.

Walnut and Oakwood are a good choice, materials most of high quality german furniture is made of.

The smooth drop-point blade is not bad either, because its quite universal in use and appears more "civilian" to possibly stunning people.

So what is left is the form of the Handle. How about a more symmetrical, rectangular form with a circle-segment to fit your index finger, and maybe two or three grooves on the side for the better grip? You look at it and think "No way! - 5 minutes of use and my hand aches!" but when you grip it, it will fit perfectly, because its profile is convex - maybe even erconomical. You see what i´m up to - geometrical forms. As we are meant to have no sense of humour, a german knife has to interpret that and look like a building of Karl Friedrich Schinkel . It has to say "Here I am. I cut." No gimmicks.

(I think it would be not bad to consider a folding version of this knife, maybe somewhat smaller, because fixed ones are good when you go to the countryside or want to put it on a shelf, but in daily business, most of us would prefer a discrete, reliable folder)

 

[ausjulius]

hi willgoy,
actualy, id say a chinese factory could make a better knife than many in europe can these days, its just that they have low prices to work with , and also little knowlage of knvies, and customers knowing little about knives them selves.. companies like walmart and such, they buy the knvies ,a dn the only know what they cost, and if its .5$ its good ..
chinese people are very good workers and mostly very loyal to their employer...... china however makes 99% of our junk......
and we buy it...... thye wouldnt make it if we didnt buy it,


oh i meant gripe.. not pripe heheheheh

sorry to say but form me sheffield= junk,,,, and it has been sof ro some 50 years since before ww2 this had begin..
and not the quality of knvies there is worse than anythign making its way form china, bad steel, horrid fittings, .. sometimes totaly unfunctional products, bad design , poor materials, it is a pitty , but this is what happens when you have a knfieless nation, there is few customers to complain...
have a look on the british forums,. and youll see the opinion of current sheffeild knives, (custom knife makers are ofcorse just fione )
today i say a knfie with aonce famouse sheffield brand, it was a barlow style folder, the knife was the most thilthy peice of werchid junk ive even seen , the shop wanted 99 australian $ for it, it was worse than any knife ive ever seen comming out of china, i wish i had the 99$ just to take it as an exsample of how nto to make a knife, the tang wasnt even profiled on the blades , so it still had a lip form the stamp.. which :d makes for interesting opening and closing, the blade would only open 2/3rds of the way, and then there was a huge gap between the balde and the backspring,, .. i cant realy explain how bad this knfie was it was so badf i nearly fainted when i saw it. the clown selling it got quite flustered when i pointed out to him to was realy the worst thing id even seen...


anyway enougth of be putting down the "things" comming out of sheffeild.. as i my self had purched in the past over the net knives made in sheffield,, ill warn anyone, dont do it, if you ever will buy one of these , see it first, and make shure the one you see is the one you buy..... no kidding ..





ok , back to the german knife...
yes im not a german, you folks ar ethe germans , i woudl have the knife made for you guys,

but it seems that there is not a great deal of interest to do this?

i dont know what makes a knife "germanish" only a german can do this.. i know what it would look like for me.. somethign like soem fashist building fomr the 1930s or somehtign out of metropolis or such,, this for me looks german .. but im not a german so i cant capture the "germanishness" the essence of german like things...

 

[ausjulius]

First of all, those prototypes seem quite useful to me, but not very german somehow.

We have the blade form, we have the handle material, but no "Character" as i would call it. So let´s try. Germans - either you love us or you don´t. So it makes no sense to craft this knife nice for everybody. It would be nice to look a bit controversial. Almost ugly in appearance, but highly sophisticated in performance.

I think the knife needs more corners and edges.

Walnut and Oakwood are a good choice, materials most of high quality german furniture is made of.

The smooth drop-point blade is not bad either, because its quite universal in use and appears more "civilian" to possibly stunning people.

So what is left is the form of the Handle. How about a more symmetrical, rectangular form with a circle-segment to fit your index finger, and maybe two or three grooves on the side for the better grip? You look at it and think "No way! - 5 minutes of use and my hand aches!" but when you grip it, it will fit perfectly, because its profile is convex - maybe even erconomical. You see what i´m up to - geometrical forms. As we are meant to have no sense of humour, a german knife has to interpret that and look like a building of Karl Friedrich Schinkel . It has to say "Here I am. I cut." No gimmicks.

(I think it would be not bad to consider a folding version of this knife, maybe somewhat smaller, because fixed ones are good when you go to the countryside or want to put it on a shelf, but in daily business, most of us would prefer a discrete, reliable folder)

hmm a folder woudl be ok,, but fixed knives are much eaiser to make, and as id think this wouldl only be a small amount of knives well stick to a fixed blade.....


hey wahts up with the Maori signature?

 

[Krabat]

Ein Nicker ist eben nicht typisch Deutsch sondern typisch BAYRISCH! Und das ist dann ja wohl was anderes und wird nicht nu´r von Jägersleuten getragen, sondern von Mitgliedern des Stammes der Bayern.

 

[kabaman]

First of all, I wouldn't take existing German Knifes (like Nicker and such) as an orientation - thus you would end up with a knife looking pretty much the same as thousands of knifes having been built in Germany before. Instead, I think it would be more interesting to design a knife that looks / feels German for other reasons.

To me, this http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=32798 looks pretty German! Maybe the handle layers could be made from some german hardwood, and some high-tech steel could be used for the blade; thus you would get the combination of highly sophisticated and traditional materials - which feels quite german for me.
Sharpening the knife does not have to be very easy, you would not fix your 911er or 7er in your backyard, but give it to a professional and qualified workshop in precisley fixed maintanance intervals - and since it's German, it won't break if properly and regularily maintained ;-)

Anyway, straight lines and - as said some time before - some sort of an edgy, useful look combined with a slight touch of unostentatious elegance should be featured.

Of course, absolutely perfect workmanship is obligatory, as well as well-thought out design and choice of materials. No Gimmicks - or, as some tool company puts it: "Don't play - work!"

In my opinion, the actual purpose of the knife has lower priotity, since most people in Germany don't actually NEED a knife, especially when it comes to fixed blades... so make it an allrounder. This, again, would allow for the use of some high-alloyed steel for the blade, since razor blade sharpness is not THAT important.

Oh, yes, and of course: On a typically German knife "Made in Germany" has to be imprinted

----

The knifes you suggested are really nice, but don't have any typically German feel to me; sorry.