the ideal german knife

hmm a folder woudl be ok,, but fixed knives are much eaiser to make, and as id think this wouldl only be a small amount of knives well stick to a fixed blade.....


hey wahts up with the Maori signature?

Yes, i understand that a folder is not within your original planning and could take too much risk to produce it, no problem :)

To my signature...well, I like the pride and strength that is transported by the Maori through the Haka, made famous by the "All Blacks"...me personally, I find it great how at least a part of their almost extincted culture is brought to us in such a way - by sport.

First of all, I wouldn't take existing German Knifes (like Nicker and such) as an orientation - thus you would end up with a knife looking pretty much the same as thousands of knifes having been built in Germany before. Instead, I think it would be more interesting to design a knife that looks / feels German for other reasons.

To me, this http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=32798 looks pretty German! Maybe the handle layers could be made from some german hardwood, and some high-tech steel could be used for the blade; thus you would get the combination of highly sophisticated and traditional materials
Anyway, straight lines and - as said some time before - some sort of an edgy, useful look combined with a slight touch of unostentatious elegance should be featured.

Of course, absolutely perfect workmanship is obligatory, as well as well-thought out design and choice of materials. No Gimmicks - or, as some tool company puts it: "Don't play - work!"

:super: I think we are on the same Frequency.

The folder on the pic you linked as example features torx-screws....either that or hexagon screws (is inbus called this? anyway..somewhat typical for do-it-yourself-individuals ) would give it a distinct hi-tech aura instead of classic bolts..additionally..mh..perhaps inlays of carbon-fibre material in the wooden handle?
 
@Mephistopheles

The folder on the pic that kabaman linked isn't a folder. It is a fixed blade.
 
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ausjulius,
I do live in Austria but I think there is no difference in the kind of knives used (except for law reasons).
I think the "limited interest" you mentioned happens because of the aproach taken. It seems like you want to make it "German" at all costs, but the only possibility i see to make a German knife is to make it in Germany. Made in Germany = German knife. :steirer:

And even then, there is no such thing as the "ideal knife" for everybody. As you can see, people have very different preference concerning the materials used, and this will not change. The only thing that people seem to have quite similar opinions about is the size of the knife and a flat grind. I assume when somebody chooses to buy a russian knife, then probably because eigther he wants to buy a Russian style knife or out of sheer utility thinking.

That's a nice blade on your photo. I also like the ergonomic looking handle on the knife which is not simply a straight piece of material, but it lacks a finger guard which is a critical point for me. The rivets look a bit too fancy for me. Also I personally don't care for wood handles. Micarta is fine for me but this is a matter of personal preference. Also I would shorten the handle for 5mm and add them to the blade, but this again is a personal matter. VG10 is a great steel, so if you have something similar, use it by all means.

The Sterkh 1 is pretty much the utility knife I would use, if it had a proper finger guard that is.
By the way, what I have not seen yet in the Kyzlyar sortiment is a small dagger with a 10 to 11 cm blade.

I hope you don't take my straight words as a personal attack. It's by sure not meant that way.
Tom
 
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ausjulius,
I do live in Austria but I think there is no difference in the kind of knives used (except for law reasons).
I think the "limited interest" you mentioned happens because of the aproach taken. It seems like you want to make it "German" at all costs, but the only possibility i see to make a German knife is to make it in Germany. Made in Germany = German knife. :steirer:

And even then, there is no such thing as the "ideal knife" for everybody. As you can see, people have very different preference concerning the materials used, and this will not change. The only thing that people seem to have quite similar opinions about is the size of the knife and a flat grind. I assume when somebody chooses to buy a russian knife, then probably because eigther he wants to buy a Russian style knife or out of sheer utility thinking.



that's a nice blade on your photo. I also like the ergonomic looking handle on the knife which is not simply a straight piece of material, but it lacks a finger guard which is a critical point for me. The rivets look a bit too fancy for me. Also I personally don't care for wood handles. Micarta is fine for me but this is a matter of personal preference. Also I would shorten the handle for 5mm and add them to the blade, but this again is a personal matter. VG10 is a great steel, so if you have something similar, use it by all means.

The Sterkh 1 is pretty much the utility knife I would use, if it had a proper finger guard that is.
By the way, what I have not seen yet in the Kyzlyar sortiment is a small dagger with a 10 to 11 cm blade.

I hope you don't take my straight words as a personal attack. It's by sure not meant that way.
Tom


indeed , austria is for me the same as germany :D ( ,, well sort of.. i think there is not much difference between southern germans and austrians? less than say australians and english im shure :p: .. hehehe)
no offence :d..

the knfie in the link loks very german to me,...........

no i want not to make a "german knfie" , but a knife form the forum members ,, which happen to be germans,
if i wanted a german knife id buy a nicker from hurbertus.. and the post a photo of it here :p:
some of the older puma knives look very german , while still shedding the form of the nicker....
these look very german to me,
i dont know if you germans perceve this welll, but to other folk germans have a specific style, in their clothign, bulidings, knives, guns ect ect..
a kind of ,, mehanical.. slightly cold, slightly mass produced, stylish look . lots of angles and such, and mostly some exstream proportions on them, that are not instantly observed,
(dont know if it offends any , but for the most part , german things look to me kind of totolitarian looking :eek: :), in a way, very regimental, but attractive none the less,)
seems always to me that some peice of poor mateiral mush be incorperated into german things :D.. or some design fault,ushaly to keep the price down, .. or some times for some reason unknown :p: while at the same time keeping the item still attractive, adn pleasing to the eye
(like the BMW's with the battery under the back seat, or the large alloy guards on the pumas,, or the gren leather sheath on the nicker... or the plastic trigger on my 1996 mauser stright pull hunting rifle :p:..)
seems to be almost a prerqusite..


i think, like the small knife in the link ,a german knife should be,, somehtign modern looking, and mechanical, as it seems this day and age that germans are mostly not the old hunter who shoots deer in the forest.
so somehtign more modern would be correct,



hmm regarding the russina knife, there is many types, about 3 main styles, "kizlyar style" form the norht caucasus, , big blades, wood rivet grips, . engraving sometimes, many grooves in the blade, images impressed in the sheath,
"vorsma style" , leather or berch bark or oak grips, alloy guards and pommels, engraved pommel and guard, etched blades, polished, blades normaly quite curved, .. leather sheath of yellow or orange leather stiched in a special way and laced with leather thong,
and "zlatoust style" , having simple leather sheaths, . with no images, normaly dark brown, unpolished blades, sometimes gold inlayed images or logos, small etching, poor images, , handles with micarta or alloy guards, birtch and birtch bark handles, or leather, ..
these are the 3 main styles, then ther eis also the norhten style of knive,s same as the siberian knives and the scandinavian knives, also there is other native ethnic styles not used by the russis. ,
ther eis also some nevwer style of knives appearing, mostly,, rather "militaryish," with many quite useless features on them, mostly coming from the designer skrilev

in russia there is many many knife firms and custom makers, so specific styles develop as there is not a distance form the maker to the buyer, only a short phone call away,,
ther eis many milions of hunters, military, knife collectors, police, ect ect who buy knives, and the market is realy quite large,
ther eis a big following of knives among most rural russians, and knives ar epopular gifts, aspecialy to take camping (and in the case of dagestanis as weapons :S)
this means that styles local to the country or region form, as there is a huge internal market, and little or no export,
russians therefore now have "russianstyle knives"(in the past not , russians ushaly used ethnic knives of the sarrounding people, the finnish knive sbeing very popular before the revolution) these look russian, and can be said to be russian,,
germans had, many years ago such knive,s but now for me it looks as though the knfie tastes and people have departed fom the makers, and the makers market is greatly reduced,
in japan, france and america you can as with russia see a good deal of knives that one could say were representing somehtign about thier origin and were still holding their popularity amongst the local population,
but it seems in germany that is no so.....

i dont try to make a "super german knife" but just somehtign that most knife orientated germans woudl look at and say that looks sort of german to me, ...
but as im a german i can,,,,..
i havent enougth contact with germans to do this.....
also your tastes seem to be strongly influenced by those of the american market..
i can perceve the general russian stlye of knife.. somethign simple, with a birch bark handle or some other natural material,, not to thick balde, ..
or a dagestani knife , being aggressive, thick balde, curved , walnut handle proably engraved with something like a wolf or a nude woman :)
..
or the australian one, a simple hunting knife , as simple as can be, rivet grip,, made to last 100 years,, but as cheaply as can be,, proably , like most else,in aus it woudl be mad ein china :O heheheh, oh and like alsl ausse leather thigns the sheath would be of massive heavey ausse leather....

ah, i ramble on,
but no i only try to make an interesting topic on this forum,
as it is some fun to make a knife designed by members of an internet forum.
i did never say that this topic was only for "kizlya" , and by all means if one who make sknives woudl wish to join in the topic it would be most interesting,


"By the way, what I have not seen yet in the Kyzlyar sortiment is a small dagger with a 10 to 11 cm blade."

ah but there was.. :S alas , russian law makes this a cold weapon, so it was cancled, .. it had a 3.5cm wide 9cm long balde and a elastron and abs handle, ill try to find you soem pictures if you wish, unfortunaly it woudl require a gun licence in russia to own , so it was cancled..

ah no offence taken :)
 
Hi ausjulius

I am relatively new to this forum but followed this thread quite closely the latest time. I have a big interest in design issues and that’s why I am fascinated by your idea to create a “german” knife. I think with your last posting you yourself made the best and most fitting points about what´s the core thought about “german” design:

a kind of ,, mehanical.. slightly cold, slightly mass produced, stylish look . lots of angles and such, and mostly some exstream proportions on them, that are not instantly observed,
(dont know if it offends any , but for the most part , german things look to me kind of totolitarian lookin

This is exactly the way I would put it.

Without wanting to disrespect the other members effort in providing hints and opinion (off course, taste is different) I think some of the earlier posts lead to a wrong direction and the first prototype although for sure a nice clean knife is in my view not representing an up to date expression of “germanness”. It is too round, has too soft edges and overall a too traditional look. It looks more like the knifes your company is producing normally which in my view are the exact opposite of what would be a german design of today (and it would be strange if it would not, because its Russian off course;-)

So apart from supporting your point of view on german design characteristics I would like to give you two different sources of inspiration (just to give an image of what I think we are talking about) is exactly fitting to your description of “germanness” in design:

1) For me a perfect example is the newly interpreted “Grabendolch” of Kevin Wilkins: here you have the connection to the past because of its roots as a traditional german weapon but this is not expressed with a folklore look and “heimatduselei”. The knife is as far away from stag-handle germanness as you can possibly be but still is very good representing modern german design: it features high-tech components, straight clean lines, is very square and edgy and has this slightly cold “lets get down to business”-look which I think is central to german industrial design. So although Kevin is not german, I think he created something that’s really looking like a modern german product.

2) The same thing can be observed in the design of firearms of the german companies Heckler & Koch and SIG Sauer which are my second source of inspiration: clean, long lines, many edges and high tech plastics and metals. Please especially have a look at the new assault rifle g-36 of H&K. But also the other weapons are similar, take the pistol USP: it is very cleanly designed, nothing superfluous on it, in fact it looks so basic that it resembles the pistols children are drawing, very simple, very straight, no frills. You will notice that one thing that’s often appearing in H&K design (I am talking only about the visual appearance now) is the “broken edge”. Let me try to explain this (in english it is quite difficult to me): assume you start with a cubic shape and then take a rasp and you file the edge of the cube away in a long horizontal stroke and now get a polygon shape at this side. It seems to me that this is often appearing in german engineered stuff, cars for example.

I don’t know whether this is somehow understandable or not (sorry for the crappy english), all I wanted to do is to express my belief that while creating a german knife you should rather focus on design characterstics and high tec components and not so much on the steel origin or whether the knife has a handle from german wood which to me is a rather banal approach to convey germanness through design.

Best,
KM
 
i agree compleatly..

an im not a german.. kevin wilkins,, is living in germany? and speeking german ,, i think
so it is harder for me to duplicate the sence of a german thing,, without being around the people this persona derives form :p:.
i could make a perfect "dagestani" knife.. or a "russian" knife,, but german is alittle hard for me..

i was actualy thinking of a modern more squared version of the old eating knvies form the 15th and 16th centuary form gernmany, many of these were paired with a hanger or sword or dagger or such, and i think it is a handy knife,
the shape is rather destinct to german areas, a smoslty people prefered a stick tanged knife for eating at that time, english , spain , france , italy ect ect, but germans had more the riveted handles..
this knfie seems also to be the father of the german nicker..
i think making a modern version of it would be interesting, make it with a little different handle and such, and it woudl be a mighty handy knife...
 
i was actualy thinking of a modern more squared version of the old eating knvies form the 15th and 16th centuary form gernmany, many of these were paired with a hanger or sword or dagger or such, and i think it is a handy knife,
the shape is rather destinct to german areas, a smoslty people prefered a stick tanged knife for eating at that time, english , spain , france , italy ect ect, but germans had more the riveted handles..


Do you have a picture of these knives? I dont know them.

KM
 
i was actualy thinking of a modern more squared version of the old eating knvies form the 15th and 16th centuary form gernmany, many of these were paired with a hanger or sword or dagger or such, and i think it is a handy knife,
the shape is rather destinct to german areas, a smoslty people prefered a stick tanged knife for eating at that time, english , spain , france , italy ect ect, but germans had more the riveted handles..


Do you have a picture of these knives? I dont know them.

KM
ill find an original foto aswell as draw a pic, and out it up.
 
germanknife.jpg


die Messer sind fertig zur Registrierung, nur habe ich nun ein kleines Problem ;). Ich soll mir ganz flott einen Namen für das Messer überlegen, der dann ins russische übersetzt wird.
Also gute Vorschläge sind willkommen:), ich bin dieses WE nicht viel online, aber vielleicht habt ihr ja gute Vorschläge.



Grüße Jenni
 
Welche Materialien sind es denn nun geworden und wie Groß ist es?
Sieht schon gut aus, vor allem ohne die alberne, neumodische "Schleifkerbe":super:
 
Hi Jennie,

ich als gebürtiger Ostwestfale würde es TEUTONE-> übersetzt тевтон nennen. Finde ich irgendwie passend :super:

Grüsse
 
Hallo Jenni,

ich bin gerade auf dieses Thema gestossen.
Das Messer welches da nun herausgekommen ist, scheint mir ein sehr handliches und ausgewogenes Model zu sein, sicher ein gutes ausgewogenes Gebrauchsmesser.
Allerdings finde ich keinen Gefallen an dem Gedanken, dass DAS ein modernes deutsches Messer, oder gar ein ideales dt. Messer sein soll.

Ein modernes dt. Messer gibt es meines erachtens nicht.
Es gibt entweder manches aus der Dt. Geschichte heraus, oder eben dt. Messer sind vordergründig Jagdmesser, wie das Linder, welches schon gezeigt wurde, oder eben ein Nicker, oder auch ein Tackelmesser.

Ein traditionelles Messer wie die Skandinavier, Franzosen, Korsen z.B. haben wir nicht aufzuweisen. Oder eben - geschichtlich etwas vorbelastet.

Und der Hinweis, dass ein in Dt. getragenes Messer wohl eher ein Klappmesser ist scheint mir sehr korrekt.
Bei der älteren Generation kommt dieses dt. Klappmesser meist aus der Schweiz und bei der jüngeren aus aller Herren Länder.
DAS deutsche Messer welches man im Alltag so mitnimmt - gibt es meines Erachtens eben nicht.

Eben deshalb ist mir auch der Gedanke nicht sympathisch, dass nun in Russland ein "ideales deutsches Messer" auftaucht, welches im Grunde jeder geschichtlichen noch realen Grundlage entbehrt.

Ich bin nicht besonders nationalbewust, als jemand, der in Hamburg sehr weltoffen aufgewachsen ist. Es ist nur doch recht seltsam, dass man anderswo ein ideales Messer für ein anderes Volk produziert.
Ich stelle mir vor, man würde in Frankreich das ideale russische Messer in Auftrag geben - ein wenig seltsam eben - vorallem, wenn es auf einer so - zwar engagierten, aber doch schmalen Basis, diskutiert wurde.

Also euer Messer in Ehren, aber als ideales deutsches Messer kann ich den Entwurf nicht ernst nehmen.

Trotzdem - schickes Messer und viel Spass damit, dem ders dann hat.

R.
 
Hallo,

leider habe ich auch erst jetzt hier reingeguckt und es ist wohl ein bisschen spät für Kritik. Aber ich kann Radhulbhs Meinung eigentlich nur unterstreichen. Was dieser Entwurf mit "ideal german" zu tun hat, entzieht sich komplett meinem Verständniss. Da wäre sogar mir als Norddeutschem ein bayrischer Nicker lieber.

Ansonsten kommen da nach meiner bescheidenen Meinung nur das Matrosen/Takelmesser, evtl. das Puma Automesser und am ehesten noch das Pfadfinder/Fahrtenmesser in Betracht. (Edit: wie teachdair woanders schon erwähnte, wäre das Sax auch interessant)

Wenn man unbedingt etwas Neues machen möchte, könnte man ja moderne Materialien (ebenfalls deutscher Herkunft wie z. B. SB1 als Stahl) oder kleine, moderne Designelemente (versteckte Fangriemenöse oder so) verwenden. Aber der hier gezeigte Entwurf hat meiner Meinung nach nichts mit deutscher Messerkultur zu tun. Leider. Ansonsten bestimmt ein ordentliches Gebrauchsmesser... :rolleyes:

Macht doch mal eine Umfrage - Abstimmung mit den genannten Messertypen.
 
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Ein traditionelles Messer wie die Skandinavier, Franzosen, Korsen z.B. haben wir nicht aufzuweisen. Oder eben - geschichtlich etwas vorbelastet.

Muss man immer wenn irgendwas mit Deutschland in Verbindung steht direkt wieder mit der historischen Schuld anfangen? Genau wegen Leuten wie dir wird man in hundert Jahren noch davon reden.
Es geht hier um ein Messer das jemand gerne in einem solchen Stil hätte. Seid doch froh, dass mal jemand mit uns Deutschen nicht gleich Bayern assoziiert. Für mich ist so jemand weltoffen.

Deshalb würde ich als Namen auch bloß etwas deutsches wählen. Beispielsweise "der Fährtenleser", "Forstfreund", "Jagdgefährte", "Wanderkamerad", "Gipfelstürmer", "Abenteurer", "Waldgeselle"...

Nur weiß ich leider nicht wie das im russischen klingen wird.
 
Hallo Messerfreund,

so ganz kann ich deine Kritik nicht nachvollziehen, denn wenn man Nicker und Tackelmesser nicht als klassische dt. Messer in Betracht ziehen will, oder gar das Puma Waidmannsbeteck, dann bleibt da nicht viel anderes.

Ich lebe seit 11 Jahren in Österreich und ich kann offen sagen - in Deutschland hat man wie kein anderes Volk die Vergangenheit aufgearbeitet und das auch sehr ausführlich und positiv.
Gerade deshalb habe ich kein Problem damit, dass da mal was schwer daneben war.
Das war und ist es anderswo auch - z.T. schlimmer, - bis heute.
Gerade deshalb habe ich wenig Probleme "Gewesenes" zu benennen, weil es "Gewesenes" ist.
So ist diese Aussage von mir auch kein wiederkäuern alter Schuld, sondern einfach ein Faktum.
Zumindest mir was es mulmig zumute, als ich in Spanien im Messergeschäft, als Deutscher vom Verkäufer enthusiastisch zu einer Wand volle SS Waffen geführt wurde.
Manche Dinge haben eben eine Geschichte - ob du das magst oder nicht.
Je klarer man dazu steht desto freier kann man damit umgehen - und auch mit der Geschichte anderer.

nochmal zum eigentlichen Thema:

Das Pfadfindermesser ( Claus hat es schon gezeigt ) ist - wenn man so will - ein recht deutsches Messer und ich fände eine moderne überarbeitete und hochwertige Version sehr interessant.
Habe es mir sebst als Jugendlicher mal gekauft.
Wobei es eben wieder ein Messer der Vergangenheit wäre, denn heute tragen Pfadies meist andere Messer.
Und auch sonst werden es wenige moderne menschen der Gegenwart tragen.
Jesenfalls käme eine Neugestaltung dieses Messertyps einem dt. Messer näher, als das entworfene Messer.

Allerdings ist das schon gezeigt Linderjagdmesser auch schon was Urdeutsches.

R.
 
Leute,

die Messer sind fertig.
Die Diskussion hatten wir schon, mindestens 3 Monate lang.

Kommende Woche werden wir nur noch über den Namen entscheiden, da wir den zur Lizensierung benötigen.

@Geonohl, Walnuss wird auf jeden Fall dabei sein, welche anderen Griffmaterialien noch möglich sind und die genauen Maße werde ich morgen erfahren.


Grüße Jenni
 
Die Messer sind sehr schön geworden.:)

Und, da es deutsche Messer sein sollen, würde ich sie schlicht "Deutschmesser" nennen, wobei ich leider nicht weiß, wie "Deutschmesser" auf russisch heißt.
 
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